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The episode features live discussions from Bitcoin Nashville, highlighting insights from Erin of Inscribing Atlantis about the event's successful organization and the evolution of the art scene within Bitcoin, particularly through ordinals and inscriptions. Additionally, Raph, the lead maintainer of the Ordinals protocol, shares his journey and the collaborative efforts behind developing this innovative technology in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
This episode is brought to you by Bitcoin Nashville, where the world's largest Bitcoin conference is set to take place from July 25-27, 2024. Join industry leaders and innovators as they discuss the future of Bitcoin, explore new business models, and network with key players in the cryptocurrency space.
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Key Topics Covered:
- The Emergence of Art on Bitcoin: The episode discusses how Bitcoin is becoming a new medium for art through ordinals and inscriptions, creating a unique cultural movement that emphasizes permanence and immutability in digital creations.
- Interplay Between Technology and Creativity: A significant theme is the convergence of technical knowledge and artistic vision required for creating inscriptions on Bitcoin, highlighting the challenges and innovations that artists face in this evolving landscape.
What was your favorite quote or lesson from this episode? Please let us know in the comments on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/@edgeofnft/
Episode Highlights:
- "I personally believe Bitcoin will... create this longevity of content that I think will become increasingly rare as the internet goes on for the next, you know, a couple decades, 50 years, 100 years." - Erin (00:14:30)
- "I found this weird project on the internet on GitHub... I saw this guy Casey Rodarmor working on this weird project and was like, oh, I want to do stuff on Bitcoin." - Raph (00:30:05)
For the full transcript, see further below.
People and Resources Mentioned:
- Erin Redwing Website
- Inscribing Atlantis Website
- Ephemera Podcast Website
- Bitcoin Nashville Website
- Ordinals Website
- Raph @raphjaph
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About Our Guest 1:
- Bio: Erin is a prominent figure in the Bitcoin art scene, known for her role as the emcee at significant events like Bitcoin Nashville. She has a background in organizing conferences and discussions that explore the intersection of art and technology within the Bitcoin ecosystem. Erin emphasizes the importance of Bitcoin's permanence and immutability for creators, advocating for a cultural movement that leverages ordinals and inscriptions to redefine digital art. She also hosts a podcast and works on projects like Ephemera, focusing on the deeper implications of Bitcoin in relation to time and content longevity.
- Website: Erin Redwing
- Twitter: @realizingerin
About Our Guest 2:
- Bio: Raph is the lead maintainer of the Ordinals protocol, sharing insights about his journey into Bitcoin development and the collaborative nature of working on this innovative project.
- Website: Ordinals
- Twitter: @raphjaph
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Disclaimer:
This is not financial or tax advice. Edge of NFT content is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. Whenever making financial decisions, we recommend doing your own research and talking to your accountant for financial advice. Disclosure: From time-to-time we may feature sponsored content for which we receive value and we may share links for which we receive a commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. See our full Disclaimer (https://www.edgeofnft.com/disclaimer), Terms & Conditions (https://www.edgeofnft.com/terms-of-use), Privacy Policy (https://www.edgeofnft.com/privacy-policy), and Copyright Notice (https://www.edgeofnft.com/copyright-notice) for details.
Full Episode Transcript:
BTC Nashville 2_1
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Richard Carthon: Hey, Web3 curious friends. Today's episode was shot live in Nashville, Tennessee at Bitcoin Nashville. I want to give a shout out to our two sponsors, BitLayer and Portal. BitLayer is the first Bitcoin security equivalent layer 2 based on the BitVM paradigm, while Portal is the bridgeless,
Richard Carthon: Interoperability protocol on Bitcoin that utilizes BitScaler, which is the only trustless multi party channel solution for scaling Bitcoin for DeFi and beyond.
Richard Carthon: On today's show, we speak with Erin from Inscribing Atlantis, where she discusses hosting the event and all of the incredible speakers that attended. Last, we speak with Raph, who is the lead maintainer of the Ordinals protocol, and he discusses where the protocol is headed next. It's time to cue the intro.
Intro: Welcome to the Edge of NFT, the podcast that brings you the top 1 percent of web3 today and what will stand the test of time. We explore the nuts and bolts of the business side and also the human element about web three is changing the way we interact with the things we love. This podcast is for the dreamers, disruptors, and doers who are pumped about this ecosystem and driving where it goes next.
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Richard Carthon : What's up, everybody? Uh, Richard from Edge of NFT here, and I'm here with Erin with Inscribing Atlantis, who has been emceeing this incredible event and been speaking with all kinds of great artists today.
Richard Carthon : And she was actually on a panel with one of my good friends, Stephen Miller, that I got to listen in on. So Erin, how are you doing today?
Erin: Great. I'm glad that the events finally come together. It's been a lot of months of planning and getting all the variables set, and it's just so fun to actually see all the moving parts coordinate and come together.
Erin: I mean, we've just had incredible speakers. That's really been the main thing. I feel like we've got great moderators who are delving really deeply and bringing out perspectives from speakers that I think most people haven't heard before.
Richard Carthon : Right.
Erin: Um, and it's, it's just been a really fun, insightful day.
Richard Carthon : It has a lot of really, like you said, great speakers on speaking all kinds of different topics.
Richard Carthon : The one that I was specifically listening to you on was around how art is being brought to Bitcoin and the future of what that looks like. So can you kind of just tell a bit more about, you know, what were you speaking about on your panel? And what did you take away from that?
Erin: So I think that, um, You know, the big appeal of Bitcoin is its longevity, right?
Erin: It's like the daddy chain, like everything comes back to Bitcoin. That's what Bitcoiners love to think. And I think that, you know, with ordinals getting the ability to inscribe content onto Bitcoin, you know, NFTs on Bitcoin, however you want to say it, it just adds another dimension of immutability and permanence that I think is really appealing to creators.
Erin: And so the conversation we were having in the panel that you were referencing, Was kind of all about thinking about Bitcoin as this huge megastructure that exists in digital space, right? Like we think that the internet is written in ink. It's really not right. Like try to go back to your myspace page from 10, 15 years ago.
Erin: You can't find it. You need to use the way back machine and you can't have every page. Like there is a lot of, you know, content that we have now that we think will be around, whether it's like, you know, IPFS link or whatever that we put our NFTs or our content into that is really not, you know, I think going to stand the test of time over long periods, decades, centuries of time.
Erin: Um, but I, I personally believe Bitcoin will, right? Because, you know, everything that you inscribe on Bitcoin is on Bitcoin. You have to, you have to get that content in order to run Bitcoin in the first place. And because Bitcoin has this strong economic thesis behind it, you know, everyone who's using Bitcoin for cypherpunk, economic, whatever reasons, also has to download all of the things that we inscribe.
Erin: And so it creates this longevity of content that I think. will become increasingly rare as the internet goes on for the next, you know, a couple decades, 50 years, 100 years.
Richard Carthon : I agree. And, uh, I think a lot of people that are here for Bitcoin Nashville here for this particular event would also agree, uh, with that stance and the permanence that is within, uh, the blockchain and especially Bitcoin and, uh, all of the incredible things that are coming along with the adoption of Bitcoin in the last year here in the States with Bitcoin ETF going live with the concept of the idea of potential Bitcoin reserve currency.
Richard Carthon : And All these other amazing things. But when you've been listening to a lot of the different conversations that have been happening just here today, what have been some of the major takeaways that you've been, um, getting?
Erin: So I think, um, it's interesting to see. an art scene emerging here. Um, I was not in the NFT world before ordinals and inscriptions.
Erin: I was in the Bitcoin world and, um, I don't know how different this is from, you know, the Ethereum NFT community or the Asalana NFT community. I don't even know how different those two are from each other, right? Yeah. Um, but I think what we're seeing emerge with ordinals and inscriptions is like its own cultural movement.
Erin: Um, inscriptions are a really particular artistic medium. And what I mean by that is You can't just drag and drop a two megabyte JPEG onto Bitcoin and do that 10, 000 times over and call it an inscription collection or an NFT collection. I mean, you can, but it will cost you probably millions of dollars, right?
Erin: So, you know, the type of art that fits the inscribing medium is its own kind of technical and artistic creative challenge. And I think, you know, It's really only in the last maybe six to eight months that people have really started to be able to wrap their heads around that because it takes a technical knowledge and a creative vision.
Erin: And so, you know, the first conference we did, um, inscribing Amsterdam back in October, I feel like, like we, I think we literally timed the bottom of the market. Like at that time it was like just the local bottom. And it's really interesting to see how the conversations have evolved since then, because at that conference, it was all Bitcoin nerds.
Erin: You know, so the conversations were extremely group, extremely technical. Um, it was all just this small niche of people that were into this, either because they, you know, maybe they were doing Stacks NFTs, for example, so they were already kind of in the Bitcoin world, or maybe they're Bitcoiners that always wanted to do NFTs, but you know what I mean?
Erin: It was kind of this specific niche of people that came together. Um, and I feel like now what we're seeing in this conference is like, We have, you know, NFT artists or artists that have never even made an NFT in their lives that are coming and giving their perspective on Bitcoin from this more like, um, you know, permanence, like internet permanence thing that I was just talking about.
Erin: Like it's, it's, I feel like that's the thing that really is inspiring creators to think about, okay, if I'm a digital artist. How can I make my digital art outlive me? Like, what does that even look like? Like, if the internet was invented after my birth, you know, so I can't even conceive of what life was like, you know, on the internet before me, like, what, what is it gonna look like after I'm gone?
Erin: And so I don't know. It's just, it's cool to see this weird esoteric philosophical kind of art scene emerge on Bitcoin. I don't think we've ever seen anything like that. Certainly not on Bitcoin.
Richard Carthon : No, not emerging as prominent as it has been like over the last year. And one of the things that I really took away from another conversation, I didn't realize, you know, your, your typical iPhone, when you take a picture, it's multiple megabytes, right?
Richard Carthon : But you basically have 400 kilobytes to work with. With inscriptions. And if you get to a point where you're trying to do more than that, people spend tens of thousands, millions of dollars if you were to do it the way that, you know, uh, these larger files and doing it over and over again to test. So, you have this convergence, like you said, of the highly technical with the art, but then also this, uh, existential idea around permanence, right?
Richard Carthon : And like, how does that evolve into the internet? And like, blending all that together. So like, I think that was a You said it beautifully, and I think it is like a beautiful thing to see all of those things converge, uh, especially at an event like this. So, um, looking ahead to the rest of this week, obviously we're here in Nashville, we're at Bitcoin Nashville, and, uh, there's much more to come.
Richard Carthon : Uh, what are your expectations for the rest of this week?
Erin: So, I mean, I think, you know, from, there's, there's lots more Ordinals stuff going on, which is really exciting. It's so cool to have, like, an Ordinals event to go to every day. Obviously, the thing that I'm most excited about is like, just the craziness of the Bitcoin conference and the speakers that they have gotten for this year.
Erin: Like, it's just, I thought for a while that, you know, I was like, okay, I'm waiting for Bitcoin to kind of become this, um, issue that comes up politically, right? Like, everyone who's into Bitcoin understands the economic and political thesis or impact that Bitcoin could have, or maybe already is having depending on your perspective.
Erin: And I think. I've waited for a long time for, like, the other shoe to drop, almost, of, like, for the political world or the econ world or the whatever world to realize that, and I feel like we're finally there, um, and it's just, I'm really curious to see, you know, these, these figures that, I mean, essentially they're pandering to Bitcoiners, right, that's what they have to do, they see that there's, like, power and money and whatever in this ecosystem and they want to be a part of it, and I think that's, it's interesting, it's exciting, it's, it's It feels fulfilling to see a thesis that you've had in your head play out, but at the same time, and I think it's been said a couple times on stage today, we don't need those people.
Erin: We've never needed those people. And so, you know, there's no reason to, to pander back to them, right? Like, and I think I'm really curious to see You know, at the Bitcoin conference later this week, um, just how that relationship goes between, you know, the, the, the people that are there for Bitcoin and the people that are there because they want a piece of what Bitcoin has to offer.
Erin: Like, I think that's an interesting tension. That's only going to become more prevalent as years go on.
Richard Carthon : I agree. Um, I think it's a dynamic that we haven't really seen in previous, uh, Bitcoin, uh, national events, uh, in international events. And. Uh, it happens to be an election year, so there's a lot of that going on.
Richard Carthon : But like you said, like that element, take that aside. Like we never needed that for, for, for crypto to be moving forward for Bitcoin to keep progressing the way it has. So I'm excited for that as well. But for Aaron, for people who are listening to this, they're like, yo, she's awesome. I want to learn more.
Richard Carthon : Where can people learn more about you and follow what you have going on?
Erin: Yeah. If, um, I've got a couple of different things going. I've always got some pots in the fire. Uh, if you like listening, we talk. I ramble all the time on how many podcasts, which is my podcast with Casey Rotemore, the creator of Ordinals.
Erin: Um, if you're interested in this, uh, you know, Bitcoin permanence, like thinking about Bitcoin from this, like, deep time, um, outliving us perspective, I have a project called Ephemera, which is really delving into a lot of those topics, you can find that at ephemera. gallery. If you're interested in my conferences and the events that I host, we've got the Inscribing series. The next one is Inscribing Singapore in September. We'll also be doing Art Basel again in December in Miami.
Erin: So depending on what you're interested in, I've got something for you.
Richard Carthon : I think our audience is going to be happy with all of those options, especially the IRL events. So Erin, thank you for sharing all that and it was great speaking.
Erin: Thank you so much.
Richard Carthon: And now for a quick word from our sponsor before we dive into the next segment.
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Richard Carthon : Everybody, Richard from the edge of NFT here. And I have an amazing guest next to me, Ralph, who is the lead. Maintainer of the ordinance protocol. How are you doing today? I'm great. Thanks for having me. Well glad you could be here.
Richard Carthon : Um, obviously with being the lead. Uh, I want the origin story like How did this even happen?
Raph: Right? Yeah. Yeah. So It started about two years ago. I was still a student in university back in germany. I'm i grew up in berlin I studied in munich um And yeah, I found this weird project on the internet on github Github is where you you know publish code and where most of the open source, uh code lives And I saw this guy casey rodhamore Like working on this weird project and was like, oh, I want to do stuff on bitcoin I'm interested in bitcoin.
Raph: I have some extra time next to my studies. So, um, yeah, I wrote to him like I think it's cool. What are you doing? Can I like to contribute? He was like, yeah Just like open pr is a pull request So it's like when you want to make a change to the code you open a pr And yeah, I I think I opened my first pr back in august 2022.
Raph: Wow um, and Yeah, from there, like, we really got along. We, uh, we, you know, hopped on Discord calls a lot, like, sharing our screen, uh, doing pair programming. It's like, pair programming is when you, uh, you know, share your screen and, like, work on, like, a problem together. You know, you discuss, like, the technical trade offs, figure out what's good, and then you implement it together.
Raph: Like, and then you usually have, like, the split, uh, a navigator and a coder. Uh, the coder is the one who actually writes, and the navigator is maybe looking at the docs, helping out. Like, we don't always code like that, but it was very good in the beginning for me, because Um, I was very inexperienced in the programming language we use, it was Rust.
Raph: So, um, I really, like, learned very quickly through that. So I had, like, basically a mentor who would, like, teach me everything. I like to say that I was his apprentice. Yeah. Because it's a very, like, hand on kind of thing, learning to program. You need to, like, have someone who's experienced, like, tell you how to structure things, how to think logically about stuff.
Raph: Um, and yeah, and then we launched Ordinalds. Um, we weren't sure if it was going to be successful, but, uh, we just launched it and it went like a rocket ship up at, uh, from that point. Um, and then at some point, uh, Casey wanted to step back a little bit to like focus on other things. And he made me the lead maintainer of the protocol, which means I kind of have a high level view of everything that's going on and have to kind of decide what becomes part of the protocol, new features, and maintaining it.
Raph: Um, and yeah, that's, that's my main, main job at the moment. Thanks. But I also work as the CDO of inscribing Atlantis. This is the conference yet we're here at today, uh, inscribing Nashville is, is the conference we're doing, but we have a whole kind of series of conferences. So we chose an inscription and then blank.
Raph: So we did an inscription in Amsterdam. We're probably going to also be inscribing Singapore. We're inscribing Nashville right now. So yeah, that's me on a high level.
Richard Carthon : That's awesome. A lot of things I want to go and break down. The first is. You saw an opportunity or you saw something that looked cool and you reached out and said, Hey, I want to help do this.
Richard Carthon : And by just taking that action, basically the trajectory of your life changed very quickly and it is now catapulted into the amazing thing that most people who are listening to this know, which are ordinals. So not only that, you've got a mentor through Casey, um, who's also doing all this awesome stuff, helping you with Rust.
Richard Carthon : Rust is a very difficult coding language. So you got multiple things out of literally just saying, Hey, this is cool. How can I get involved? So like, I just want to take this moment to really just reflect on it. People who listen to our show all the time, and you listen to some of the origin stories, sometimes you just need to take action.
Richard Carthon : Sometimes you hear about something really cool, sometimes you, like, hear about a project or a community and you're like, man, that sounds really awesome. Instead of just having that thought, do something, do that next step. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It can
Raph: change everything, right? Yeah, yeah, like, my initial motivation was to work with someone that is experienced in Rust and do something on Bitcoin.
Raph: Like, I liked the project, but my main motivation was like, Selfish, you know, I wanted to learn something and I, there was this person who was giving away knowledge for free. And that was like my, my, my initial motivation to do stuff. And yeah, you just have to take the leap sometimes. Like, uh, I remember the first commit I did was a very small change in the repo, but it felt so good.
Raph: Like having you, when you, when you do a PR, like a pull request. Like, someone reviews it, in this case it's Casey, and then you, like, they click approve, and you get this green checkmark, and then you can press, uh, squash merge, and then it becomes part of the code base, so, that's a very satisfying feeling, uh, generally, like, open source is a lot of stress sometimes, because, like, everyone is watching what you do, like, every single thing you do is, like, being watched and scrutinized.
Raph: But it's also very rewarding, like, getting that feedback from, like, the world, basically.
Richard Carthon : No, absolutely. So you get the feedback, and now again, catapult here to being CTO of, um, inscribing Atlantis, which is doing all these different places. Right now we're in Nashville. Um, obviously this event has been amazing, uh, had the amazing opportunity to talk to Aaron earlier, and, uh, now getting to speak with you.
Richard Carthon : Like, what were your big takeaways from today's event?
Raph: From today's event, like, just the sheer amount of, like, You know, how big and real the community is. Like when you spend a lot of time on the internet, you know, you interact with like PFPs and like through telegram chats or like on Instagram, on Twitter and like, but then you see these people in real life and you really like to feel the energy.
Raph: So then when you go back onto the timeline, you know, these people, so now like there's like this real organic connection. So like for me, the, the, the, the most fun part is. Yeah, meeting the people in real life and seeing that that is a real thing, you know, like it's not just bots that I'm interacting with, it's actually real people.
Raph: Um, and then of course, like all the discussions here, like it's, you can have these very spontaneous discussions, new ideas come up, like, oh, how could we like improve the protocol, which is always kind of easier to talk to in person because it's like you're already engaged, you get all the, you know. Facial features and facial reaction that like much more information flows between people when you are in person than online So yeah, that's that's what I enjoyed most and of course, I don't know if you'll show this in the video But like we have this epic huge screen Like with amazing animations like a bunch of people like made these animations So it's like just standing in front of it and it's like wow, this is crazy.
Richard Carthon : Yeah. Yeah, we're at an amazing Place with the events being held where apparently they put on movies here. They filmed
Raph: the Mandalorian here, I think. Oh wow Yeah, it makes so much
Richard Carthon : more sense. Yeah, when we share these screens, you'll see why but like yeah, this is crazy. A really cool event set up and, uh, I agree with you, like being able to meet all these people IRL and in real life, uh, after spending hours worth of time.
Richard Carthon : Yeah, yeah, on Twitter spaces, YouTube,
Raph: whatever, yeah, yeah,
Richard Carthon : yeah. Yeah, getting to finally come, put a face to a name and, uh, further those relationships. But also, like, the knowledge that you get from, from hearing all these amazing speakers. Um, one of the things that I think is, uh, So cool. Like you said, you've been building this for almost two years now, August of 2022 at the time of this recording, it's July of 2024, and you have all of these Ornel projects that have emerged.
Richard Carthon : Um, how have you seen the progression of more and more, uh, people inscribing on top of this protocol?
Raph: Yeah, it's, it's, it's honestly astonishing, you know, because when you work on the low level protocol, you know, you're pushing bits and bytes everywhere. They're very focused on like these nitty gritty details.
Raph: And then What is nice, you see the emergent phenomenon of people coming together and using your software and like all this complexity that you never imagined would happen, happening on like this foundation of the, of the protocol. So just like seeing it. Seeing a community grow from absolute zero, like it was literally me and Casey and one other person were just coding, like nobody was interested in it, seeing it from going from absolute zero to this like multi billion market that it's now and the whole community around it, like, that's, like, that's pretty cool.
Raph: Like, I'm not gonna lie, like, that's one of the craziest things I've experienced.
Richard Carthon : It's sick, man. It's a huge accomplishment. And justice for all those that you can share alpha with, what's, what's next for Inscriptions?
Raph: So, I mean, the, the, the thing I maintain is called ORD, O R D, it's like the Reference Implementation.
Raph: It's not only the Reference Implementation for Ordinals and Inscriptions, it also has RUNES support, which is like this fungible token protocol, but I think our focus is more on, on Ordinals and Inscriptions, because I think they're more interesting and more fitting to, like, L1 Bitcoin. I think RUNES is very good for, like, Layer 2 and stuff, so, um, but we're working on both ends, so I think, New features, um, that we're adding are stuff that we call recursive endpoints.
Raph: This basically allows inscriptions to, like, talk to each other and, like, build up complex, like, 3D graphical things, um, by referencing other stuff and referencing stuff that is on chain. So I think the most innovation for the application space, for users and for artists, is through these recursive endpoints.
Raph: Because the Ordinal to Inscriptions protocol is pretty stable right now. So in the beginning We had a lot to do, like when we launched it was an unfinished protocol and like we had to scramble to get the basic features out. And now like after, yeah, 18 months, two years, we're at a stage where the protocol is pretty much 95 percent done.
Raph: Uh, there's a lot of, you know, low level work, making the database more efficient, but that's not very relevant for users. What's relevant is like these recursive endpoints and yeah, we'll, we'll keep, um, kind of building those out. And then like. I also like going into the application space slowly. So I'm doing the protocol work. I've done some inscribing and now I'm building a whole kind of application around it together with inscribing Atlantis and Aaron. We have this project called ephemera Ephemera kits go to ephemera.
Raph: gallery and it's like a whole cool kind of archaeological Uh, connecting, uh, Bitcoin time with, like, planet time. And, so, yeah, it's, it's very cool to kind of, yeah, do, do a foray into the application space and actually build something that, you know, people can click around and use. So, um, That's the alpha, I guess, for now.
Raph: And
Richard Carthon : It's a lot of alphas. So if someone's listening to this who's motivated from what we talked about earlier about hearing something and doing something, right now you can be that case for someone else that's listening right now. How can they tap in and become involved with what you have going on and learn more about your
Raph: journey and what's to come?
Raph: That's a great question. Um, so I'm a developer, so I'm always looking for people who want to like, you know, code in Rust, help me with the code base. I'm always looking for help. Um, we do these coding streams, so where me and Casey, sometimes only me, where we sit down and do work on the code base. So it's great to kind of, if you're, uh, trying to get to know Russ, trying to get to know the protocol, we kind of sit down and like walk through the code base, explain how everything works and code up some new features.
Raph: And we've recorded, I think now, must be like 20, 30 videos. If you go to, um, Open Ordnance Institute's YouTube, you can see all of those recordings. So if you want to kind of get into the developing part of it, you can check out those videos. Like it's very, they're fun. Like we try to make them interactive and we also like to do the streams, of course.
Raph: So I think every two weeks we do a stream. So if you kind of follow me on Twitter or Casey, we will announce it. And then people come into discord and we code together and do stuff together. So that's good. For developers if they want to get into it. Um, and then yeah artists just like there's a bunch of resources to check out But yeah,
Richard Carthon: So for those who are listening, what is your twitter?
Raph: Uh raft japh. So, um r a ph j a ph Uh, that's my twitter. Check it out. Yeah. Awesome Sometime
Richard Carthon : Well, make sure you go follow and get involved in this amazing community and appreciate your time today. Awesome Thank you. Thank you
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