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In this episode with Andy Krainak, we discuss the evolution of VCon 2024, highlighting unique integrations like Layer 2 ticketing and live commerce shows. The conversation also explores the intersection of Web3, AI, and marketing, featuring insights from industry leaders like Matt Wasserloff and Ali Sabet on the future of digital advertising and community engagement in the NFT space.
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Key Topics Covered:
- Evolution of VCon and vFriends: Andy Krainak discusses the growth and changes in VCon, highlighting the shift to Los Angeles and the introduction of new ticketing methods on Layer 2 to enhance user experience.
- Blockboard's Innovative Approach: Matt Wasserloff explains how Blockboard leverages blockchain and AI to eliminate waste in digital advertising, aiming to provide brands with higher ROI and a cleaner advertising ecosystem.
- Community and Creativity in Web3: Ali Sabet emphasizes the importance of building authentic communities in the NFT space, sharing his approach to creating engaging programs that foster excitement and connection among collectors.
What was your favorite quote or lesson from this episode? Please let us know in the comments on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/@edgeofnft/
Episode Highlights:
- "I think we have been extremely focused on delivering what we always said we were going to set out to deliver on, which is three years of econ and other access utility." - Andy Krainak
- "When you apply AI on top of blockchain, what that does is the blockchain provides the security. So you know you're reaching the right people. And then you apply AI, Gen AI, and you reach them faster." - Matt Wasserloff
- "Web3 is not a thing you sell. It's a technology that powers everything we do, like early days of the Internent” - Swan Sit
For the full transcript, see further below.
People and Resources Mentioned:
- Andy Krainak LinkedIn
- VeeFriends LinkedIn
- VeeFriends Website
- Matt Wasserlauf LinkedIn
- Blockboard LinkedIn
- Ali Sabet Website
- Swan Sit Website
- Frantics Webpage
- Absolute Labs Website
- Zipline Webiste
- Cosmic Wire Website
- Vatom Website
- VeeCon Webiste
- Gary Vaynerchuk Webiste
Connect With Us:
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- Twitter: https://x.com/EdgeofNFT
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/edge-of-nft-podcast/
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- Telegram: https://t.me/edgeofnft
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About Our Guest + Headshot:
- Bio: Andy Krainak is the president of VeeFriends, a dynamic community and brand that focuses on creating engaging content and experiences within the Web3 ecosystem. He has played a pivotal role in the evolution of VeeCon, an annual event that brings together enthusiasts and innovators in the space.
- Website: VeeFriends
- Twitter: @krainak, @VeeFriends
- Instagram: @VeeFriends
- LinkedIn: Andy Krainak
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Full Episode Transcript:
Intro: Welcome to the Edge of NFT, the podcast that brings you the top 1% of Web3 today and what will stand the test of time. We explore the nuts and bolts of the business side and also the human element of how Web3 is changing the way we interact with the things we love. This podcast is for the dreamers, disruptors, and doers who are pumped about this ecosystem and driving where it goes next.
Josh Kriger: Hello, this is Josh Krieger, co-host of EdgeMT Live at VeeCon 2024 with the one and only Andy Krainak, president of VeeFriends, and one of the visionaries behind this amazing event. It's great to have you on the show.
Andy Kraina: It's great to be back. Thank you for being at VeeCon again.
Josh Kriger: Yeah, three years in a row. You guys keep evolving. What brought you to LA and what are some of the nuances of this year's concept that are a little bit different?
Andy Kraina: Yeah, we had a great time the last two years in the Midwest. We wanted to evolve the event and really, one, try to have the luxury of having more travelers and attendees come to L.A. And it's a completely different venue. You know, we want to have multiple stages. We want to have an outdoor area. And pretty quickly, the locations, you can do something like that and narrow in. And we had a couple of options in L.A. Live and Los Angeles. It seemed like the perfect fit.
Josh Kriger: Well, convenient for me, 30 minutes from home, so I'm not complaining. And what are some of the unique integrations that you're doing this year that you're trying out?
Andy Kraina: Considering what the show is, I would mention that we dropped VeeCon tickets on Layer 2 base this year. Oh, very cool. There were questions about it, but I thought it would be a much more consumer-friendly way to try to avoid all the gas fees on doing it on Mainnet. Aside from ticketing, I think the Fanatics live show we're doing right now is really, really cool. We have guests from speakers and panelists appearing on our live commerce show and they're opting off a personal item. So we have a one-on-one VeeCon hat that a hat designer just auctioned off. That's really fun and exciting. And then just the programming.
Josh Kriger: The lineup is incredible. Yeah. And Ed Balloon opened it up. He rocked the house. That was really cool. Absolutely. So let's talk about BeFriends as a whole. You have this incredible array of IP. And for me, what would give me heartburn is how do you define your target audience given the breadth of potential there?
Andy Kraina: Yeah. You know, Of course we're not, we're an evolving brand and we want to have content and stories for every room in the household. That would be the dream scenario. Our YouTube kid show is launching in September and it's really focused on six to ten-year-olds and I'm excited to spend the next 24 months, 36 months really trying to storytell and build an audience around kids and parents specifically within the six to ten.
Josh Kriger: Cool. So that's really the focus. I guess the other question there is, since VeeFriends is a dynamic community with a lot of interaction you and Gary have with the community, how do you balance or develop in that longer term roadmap with gauging feedback as you go along?
Andy Kraina: It's a good question. I mean, I think we have been extremely focused on delivering what we always said we were going to set out to deliver on, which is three years of econ and other access utilities. And it feels amazing to have done that so far successfully. We've gotta get through one more day of VeeCon. And then it's just an evolving loop, just like VeeCon has gotten, in my opinion, slightly better every year. And that's because the community has given us feedback. And we've heard it, and we've implemented it. And I think it's just a feedback loop of listening, and then repeating back what we've been told, and continuing to evolve the brand.
Josh Kriger: When we look at the overall intersection of technology, culture, brands, where you're immersed, you're having conversations with folks every day, a lot's changed. AI has taken sort of center stage the last few years, especially. How, what's your advice for the sort of folks that are trying to navigate all these dynamics and they come to you, whether they're a community member or a partner trying to figure out how to sort of stay current and sort of push the boundaries in the current sort of state of flux.
Andy Kraina: Yeah, I think on one side, I think people overreact and go all in and it's a little too early. And so I think just staying patient And then on the flip side, I think being adaptable and staying curious. You know, right now, I think it would be a big mistake if you weren't interacting with a platform like ChatGPT on a weekly basis.
Josh Kriger: Yeah. Perplex the AI. Have you tried it? I haven't. All right. That's my favorite. So it takes ChatGPT 4, combines it with the internet.
Andy Kraina: I'm learning more, but I forget what you call it when you're having two different AI systems. connect together. But I think it's fascinating. And I would say if there's a next VeeCon and you're doing another interview, I couldn't imagine that we won't be talking about another platform in AI and how it's impacting VeeFriends, workplace culture and every industry.
Josh Kriger: Very cool. So I have two quick hitters for you before we wrap. This sort of goes back to our traditional show format. We like to ask our guests, get to know them better. This is a mini version. So what is the first thing you ever purchased in your life?
Andy Kraina: Man, I don't know if I really know the answer to that question. First thing I ever purchased in my life. Do you remember? I am trying to think about the first CD I ever bought. You know the song Peaches? Millions of peaches. Of course, yeah. I think the President of the United States. It was in a bin. I bought it on cassette tape, I think.
Josh Kriger: OK. I own some cassettes, some Bismarck keys. Yeah. Some other ones are a little embarrassing. Boy, some men. And then on the flip side, what was the first thing you remember ever selling in your life?
Andy Kraina: I remember selling my Harry Potter Sorcerer's Stone book. at a garage sale.
Josh Kriger: Cool. So, in collectibles from the very early days. Andy, great to have you on the show. Thanks for your time. Thanks for having me back. Hello, this is Josh Krieger, co-host of Edge of NFT, and we're live at VeeCon 2024 in Los Angeles, California, my hometown. And I'm here next with Matt Wasserloff, the CEO and founder of Blockboard. Great to have you on the show, Matt. Great to be here. Thanks, Josh. So I was really excited to learn a little bit about what you guys are doing, but I think you're probably the best person to sort of explain what Blockboard is all about to our audience.
Matt Wasserlauf: Great. So thanks for having me. Matt Wasserloff, I'm the CEO and co-founder of Blockboard. We're an outcome-based marketing platform built on the blockchain, which is why we're here at VeeCon. And what we do, in essence, is deliver those great business outcomes by removing all the waste. and we accelerate those outcomes using Gen AI, Block AI is what we call it. So we're out doing some pretty amazing things.
Josh Kriger: We'll talk a little bit about that, but I'm just curious, what brings you to VeeCon?
Matt Wasserlauf: Yeah, so I've gotten to know VaynerMedia. So Gary Vaynerchuk's media company is a pretty prominent, leading advertising agency in New York, where I'm from.
Josh Kriger: I hear the accent. I don't know if you can pick it up. I'm from Boston.
Matt Wasserlauf: I lost my accent. Oh, there you go. We'll have to talk about that after the show. But Gary's running an incredible company. This is his, obviously, flagship event. This is our first VeeCon. And as a big proponent of blockchain, we knew we had to be here. So that's why we're excited to be here.
Josh Kriger: Yeah, VeeCon's all about this mix of Web 2.0, Web 3.0, culture and entertainment, right? All topics we'd also like to cover on Edge of. So I guess like what sparked this sort of evolution of Blockboard and sort of when did you guys sort of kick off this initiative that you're doing with the blockchain?
Matt Wasserlauf: So about five and a half years ago, I've been a pioneer of the digital advertising industry. So 20 years ago, I started the first online video network called BBE. We built the first video ad serving system called Vindico. And so a long time in the space and saw something that really concerned me, which was the waste. So the ANA did their report that came out last year, and they revealed that there's $22 billion of waste.
Josh Kriger: Define waste in the context of digital advertising.
Matt Wasserlauf: Made for advertising sites. Sites that are built simply to siphon money off of that CPM stream that advertisers pay. Wow. And so $22 billion worth of it. I had an inkling that it was that big. And so I sought to do something about it and built Blockboard with my co-founder Tarun Yadav, who built a world-class platform on blockchain. And so that's what we're out to do is really build a new way of driving great advertising for major marketers.
Josh Kriger: So basically, this is using blockchain to give brands a higher ROI on their ad spend? Simply that, yes. Cool. And what's been the attraction so far?
Matt Wasserlauf: Well, I started it during the pandemic. So it was hard going, but I found a couple of friends who really needed a solution. One that comes to mind is 8 o'clock coffee. My friend Mike Scalero was agonizing over the fact that no one was going to Starbucks during the pandemic. And he was not able to sell his bags of coffee, 8 o'clock coffee. And he appealed to me. He said, do you have something better? I said, we do. And we exposed the two largest companies in the world, Google and TrainDesk, two largest video ad platforms, and we delivered sales. Neither of those companies did, and we were off and running.
Josh Kriger: Nice. So there's an AI component to all this, which you mentioned as well. Tell me a little bit more about how AI and blockchain integrate into your solution.
Matt Wasserlauf: So when I started Blockboard, I didn't see the AI train coming.
Josh Kriger: But I don't know if any of us knew it was coming this fast, right? It's been like slowly coming around the corner for 10, 20 years, and then all of a sudden it's flying.
Matt Wasserlauf: So we were out to save the world by using blockchain to fix this fraud problem, right? And when I started to come to everyone's consciousness a few years ago, my co-founder turned to me and said, I'm going to test this. I'm going to see how this works on our blockchain foundation. And we were both intrigued. We tested a couple of accounts, one of which is Proactiv, one of our largest brands. They're a skincare brand that cures acne. And boom, we saw over 200% lift in sales. And then we started using it on our other clients. We just did a test with knockaround sunglasses. Boom, 375% increase in sales. So we are really excited about the combination. We call it the power of two. When you apply AI on top of blockchain, what that does is the blockchain provides security. So you know you're reaching the right people. And then you apply AI, Gen AI. and you reach them faster and all of a sudden you have a really lethal combination and we call it the power of two and it is working. We are now running around the world selling and promoting our new block AI product and everybody is really excited.
Josh Kriger: So let me ask you a question. A lot of the concerns with AI is a sort of forged identity. And I would imagine for advertisers similar to their physical products that are constantly knocked up They don't want people impersonating their brand. From a digital advertising perspective, do you see what you're doing as sort of solving that problem now or in the future?
Matt Wasserlauf: Most definitely now and in the future. So now we're not necessarily stopping people from mocking or creating a different ad. But the ad that we're given by the advertiser, we're protecting that creative. Not only are we protecting it, we're making sure it runs to the right people, the right places. And when we promote it, we're seeing the results in a way that we know we're securing because we're writing it on a public ledger. So, yes, it's doing it's doing all that now. And as people try to play with that creativity, we're going to protect that in the future.
Josh Kriger: So are we talking about traditional advertising KPIs like clicks, click-through, and conversions? And are you tracking that on the blockchain?
Matt Wasserlauf: Yes, we're tracking all of those things on the blockchain. Where it doesn't really show, I think where your question was going, is those standard media metrics the reach and frequency that major brand marketers are always looking at. You're not going to see the difference there. But when you lean into those secondary KPIs, it makes a world of difference.
Josh Kriger: Very cool. I guess there's also an environmental consideration around digital advertising as well. You can educate me and our audience there. What does that look like today and sort of how are you thinking about sustainability?
Matt Wasserlauf: So we're thinking about sustainability quite a bit. Now we have a lot going on with the power of two, but when you think about that third element, the sustainability element, the amount of emissions that we're saving, one in the fraud that we're removing, okay, there's a ton there. But now with AI and really relieving our marketers from having to do all those data hops moving data around, there is a huge amount of waste that we're saving. And so we just notched a partnership with EdNet Zero. They're one of the largest industry orgs that's organizing around this. And we're going to start to measure and track just how much emission we're saving because we know, just like I did with the fraud problem, that we're going to save the world a lot of emission and I'm making my North Star. 3.7% of the world's emissions that are now being used by digital ad tech. We're going to save that 3.7%.
Josh Kriger: Anything else on your roadmap that we didn't cover you wanted to mention?
Matt Wasserlauf: You led me right down to those I call the hat trick. So blockchain, removing fraud. AI, accelerating outcomes, and sustainability, saving the world. That's what I wanted to cover, and you helped me cover those.
Josh Kriger: All right, well, happy to do it. These are all interesting topics for our audience, so I appreciate all that. Taking a sort of broader perspective based on your ad tech background and sort of your immersion into blockchain, into Web3, into events like Bacon and sort of this intersection of culture and entertainment, What do you see in the future over the next five years that might surprise people? Recognizing that you didn't catch the train with AI, I didn't either, but at this point you're thinking about this day and night, right? So what's coming up?
Matt Wasserlauf: Yeah, I mean, it's just going to be cleaner. You know, we're going to clean up what is a very toxic ecosystem. You know, I grew up in the TV business. You know, we all knew what the units of measure were. It was Nielsen ratings for better or for worse. Everybody played by the rules. And we built an incredible TV industry built around major media companies that were creating world-class production. Digital advertising has grown up quite differently, and I'm making it my legacy really to clean up what is a huge mess right now. That's really my focus. It's not a short-term thing. It's not a short-term fix. It's going to take us a little while. We're up against the largest companies in the world who are the most capitalized companies in the world. They're almost like countries. They're bigger than some... They are the state. They're bigger than many countries. You're exactly right. So we have a lot of heavy lifting here in the near term, but my focus is cleaning up that mess.
Josh Kriger: Very cool, and if anyone wants to get on that crusade with you, I imagine at this point you're really looking for additional brands that would be interested in exploring your platform, but where should folks go to learn more about you guys?
Matt Wasserlauf: Myblockboard.com is our URL. There's some gentleman out in Italy who has blockboard.com, so we'll save that for another time. We're at myblockboard.com. And are you on X personally? I'm on X personally, yes. Where do people come from? Let's get you some followers. Oh, I appreciate that. You know, we're Blackboard Com. Blackboard Co.
Josh Kriger: All right. Thanks for your time today. I appreciate it. Thanks, Josh.
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Josh Kriger: Hi, everyone. This is Josh Krieger, co-host of Edge of Eternity. I'm living at VeeCon 2024 in Los Angeles, California, meeting with all the great luminaries hanging out here. I have Ali Sabet, an OG in the Web3 space and an icon. It's really an honor to finally have you on the show. You've been at Outer Edge. We've talked so many times, but I think this is the first time we're officially recording some content together.
Ali Sabet: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful being a part of your journey over the past few years, watching you grow from the first Outer Edge, which was out of TLA, to the one that I spoke at, which was, I think, last year. Yeah. It all blurs together, right? I don't even know where we are right now. We're at VeeCon now.
Josh Kriger: Yeah, what brings you to VeeCon? I know you're speaking here. What's sort of on your mind these days?
Ali Sabet: You know, as far as VeeCon goes, I think the community has been a really lovely, warm, accepting community. I didn't have a bee friend, but I was given one just recently. Which one? The dragon. Nice. Because I'm a dragon. This is the year of the dragon. And I also got a chance to actually create for the VeeFriends community just recently. I gifted, I think, 550 paintings, editions of one of my paintings for the Gift Goat community. So that was really cool. And just meeting the people Nick and Daniel, all the guys that are running the show, they've just been so kind and asking me to speak here is definitely one of the reasons I'm here.
Josh Kriger: Right on, right on. Yeah, they do a really great job. It's a fun event, a lot of different activities going on, music, Ed Balloon kicked it off with a great performance. Yeah, always does. I see folks with your art, so clearly you're finding some time to sketch here and there. Absolutely. So you've been an icon in the space for the whole sort of era of NFTs growing, evolving, having their highlights and their challenges. Right. I'd love to sort of get your perspective on how you have endured and persevered through the highs and lows.
Ali Sabet: So the highs were easy, right? The highs were fun. I mean, I wouldn't say easy. There was a lot of hard work that was put into creating the artwork. making sure you had an audience and turning some of that audience into a community that actually cared about what you were doing. And then building programs, I call them programs, where it's exciting for people to collect the artwork.
Josh Kriger: I love that. I haven't heard that term program, but that makes a lot of sense. They're not projects. They're not necessarily like always companies, but they're programs that could be short-form programs or long-form mini-series, sequels, right?
Ali Sabet: Absolutely. I'm doing what's coming up as Ultra Kitties, which is 888 101 kitties on ordinals, where the first project or program was Skull Kitties, which was 3,000 cats, right? And then there's going to be a trade-in program, in which you bring three Skull Kitties and get one Ultra Kitty. So those programs are important because it makes it more exciting for people to engage and have fun. When things are available, it's not about falling well. I have hoodies on my website that you can purchase right now. But unless it's tied to a drop that's limited, that's only 21 of them left, and so on and so forth, I think that's when it gets exciting for people to want to collect the work, whether it's a hoodie or an NFT or a piece of art, versus my website having all 21 you know, hoodies available all the time. It just doesn't excite anyone. Again, it's not about FOMO, it's about excitement, and those programs are very important. Educating your audience about those programs and how you do work and how you got there is also really, really important, because without education, nobody's going to know who you are and what you do and why you're here.
Josh Kriger: I think when you think about our roots as humans in a sort of trading society, it's always been about limited additions. Like if you're the person in the village that can make something no one else can make, and there's only so much of your time and materials to make it, it becomes a more precious resource, right? So I really do look at the evolution of digital scarcity as sort of just the evolution of culture.
Ali Sabet: Yeah, it's important. I mean, when I started, as far as scarcity goes, I don't know if you were part of those early times when I was being asked not to mint anymore. I was being asked to stop minting. I was asked not to share as much. I took offense to it because as an artist, that was the way I was making a living. And I called it out. I was like, this is faux scarcity. This is fake scarcity. And that's where the term fuck scarcity came. And I actually did an entire collection underneath it. I did an NFT where I gave it to everyone. Now that NFT actually trades for quite a bit, which is, I did a one-on-one that was named Fuck Scarcity and that sold for 5e. There was only one. So there were these things that I played with because I wanted to let people know that just because we minted a lot of work, doesn't mean that we don't respect the scarcity of the work. It just means that every piece that you mint, has its own level of scarcity. I have hundreds and hundreds of pieces that have been minted as editions and once those editions are gone, that piece is scarce. There's 30 editions or 100 or 7,000. But there is a limit, right? It just depends on how big your audience and community is and if you have demand for your work.
Josh Kriger: Do you think there's still room in the NFT space for new artists or should they wait until the market heats up a little bit more? And sort of the prediction is that that will come sort of late Q4, Q1.
Ali Sabet: I don't think there is a bad time to enter space ever. I think the sooner you get in and you start getting to know people and build friendships and real community, which to me is like real one-on-one friendships. We've known each other for so long and there's really no ulterior motive to knowing each other. It's just a matter of how things work out and how we can help each other over time. So I believe that there's no bad time to get in. And if you're thinking about the market or there's so many artists out there, that's a competitive mindset. And the only way you succeed and have longevity is to come from a creative mindset. Create your path. The market might be bad for everybody else, but for you, it could be amazing. because you come from a creative mindset and you're building your path that way.
Josh Kriger: Speaking of creativity, you use a lot of different mediums. Do you approach each medium in a similar way or differently? And what are some new mediums that you're experimenting with?
Ali Sabet: So, I tend to paint both in the physical realm and digitally. When I mess around with physics, I always try to figure out how I can turn it into digital and save the pop and the energy that is embedded in that piece in the version that's digital. When I paint digitally, I also make sure that how much energy and love I can put into that digital piece that it shows itself, where it's not just a few lines that people see. Maybe it's a simple piece, but how do I make the most impact with those two or three lines, right? So I play with all, right now, the past, I want to say the past six months, we're doing a lot of pixel art. because I've been entering the Ordinals community with Smart Kitties.
Josh Kriger: Same here. Everyone's entering. You can't escape what's going on over there. I'll be at the Pizza
Ninja and Bit Lair event in Korea Blockchain Week and have supported a lot of their events so far. I hold up Pizza Ninja.
Ali Sabet: That's awesome. You're going to be excited to know that Ultra Kitties is going to have 10 101 Pizza Ninja style characters in it by Boozy. All right, let's go. Yeah, so people are going to be digging for those. There's going to be about a thousand of originals, but all one-on-ones by me, but there's going to be a few other character artists. That's what it's about. It's about that collaboration, that creativity, that putting people together. And for me, to limit myself, to go more minimal because of the limitations that I have from a standpoint of my digital output for ordinals, I had to go to something even more limited. But I had to feel authentic. I had to feel real. So I had to find that part of me that loves pixels and the 80s culture and the punk culture.
Josh Kriger: For Game Boy, I had those individual games that you had to buy that were like 20 bucks back then. And I actually created an arcade, I think I was six years old, on my porch with all those different games. And I was charging kids in my neighborhood to play the games until their parents complained to my mom. And that was like my first entrepreneurship journey. So yeah, I created my own arcade.
Ali Sabet: Yeah, you can that's that's beautiful man See what you're doing now
Josh Kriger: Who would have thought? Yeah, yeah. It all comes back around, right? Like I also did interviews when I was five years old for my local paper and I didn't even realize it so recently, like how it came back around to this point in my career because I've done technology and consulting and all sorts of different fun stuff and now here I am reliving my five-year-old self. That's amazing.
Ali Sabet: It's a dream, right?
Josh Kriger: That's the dream. It's a dream. It's a lot of fun talking to amazing folks like you. You mentioned one of your upcoming projects. Are you messing around with AI at all?
Ali Sabet: I did for a while. It was fun when I could feed it some of my own work and sketches and have it to riff off of it and build out things. I mean, to put words in a computer and have it spit out work in a minute or whatever. It's exciting to see. I see it as a tool. I was a graphic designer for 20 years and a branding guy. So for me, all these tools didn't, they didn't scare me necessarily. They just, um, I'm like, all right, it's just something else I have to learn. Uh, there is the downside of some people feeling like their artwork is being ripped off. The fact that you can say, paint a Saved and it'll paint a woman with flowers in her hair and all that stuff. Can get a little weird But I didn't you know for me it didn't bother me I I've used it I'll continue to use it for different purposes It makes things a lot easier when you try to do a marketing piece or you need a reference of something But I wouldn't probably as an artist that loves to get his hands dirty. You probably won't see me relying on AI and the capacity of creating original work.
Josh Kriger: Makes sense. So this has been really insightful and we'll have to have a deeper dive at some point in the future. Before we wrap, I wanted to get your perspective more broadly on this sort of intersection of Web3, culture, technology, and entertainment and where you think it's going. We're at VeeCon. A lot of these worlds are converging. Do you have any sort of perspective on the years ahead and what they might bring that might surprise some folks?
Ali Sabet: Oh, man. I mean, with technology, AI, robotics, all this stuff that we're seeing, I'm not the best at foretelling the future, but I feel like it's going to be really exciting as long as we can kind of tune out all the negativity and the fear-mongering that's going on. and everything else, I think there is definitely a bright future for everything. This is just the tip of the iceberg, I feel. I think we're at the beginning stages of, we always say we're early and all that stuff, I get it, but this feels archaic to me compared to what it's gonna be. I mean, imagine our cell phones, what they were only, what, 13 years ago? 17 years ago? And it's where we are now.
Josh Kriger: I'm excited. We're basically humanoids. Yeah.
Ali Sabet: I mean, you're glued to that thing, so it might as well be inside you. You know what I mean? But no, as far as art and technology converging and... Web 3 and Web 2, I think all those monikers are going to disappear. It's just going to be one thing. But probably not a great answer.
Josh Kriger: No, it's perspective. And I think I won't hold you to it. Hey, you said this. I think at the end of the day, no one does have that crystal ball. And how fast things are moving makes it that much more difficult to predict. I'm excited about how all this stuff is coming together and for the future of social media, the future of entertainment, the future of art. That's what keeps me interested in what we do every day, which is to have conversations with folks like you.
Ali Sabet: Yeah, I love this. I mean, at the end of the day, no matter how advanced it gets, it's going to come back to relationships and us having conversations about it, right?
Josh Kriger: Yeah we just had Krista Kim on our other Edge of AI show, and she was at our Edge Riyadh, and she talked about sort of one of her projects is sort of the biorhythm of the heartbeat and how that is an imprint that is original, sort of individual across all humans on Earth. That's interesting. And how she's sort of turning that into an art culture project.
Ali Sabet: I would really love to see that because lately, The past few years, I've had this heart issue where tachycardia, my heart rhythm goes up and all that stuff. Oh, wow. So you have a unique heartbeat. Yeah, I got a crazy ass heartbeat. And lately, I've been thinking about doing a project, an Ordinals project. where I capture myself painting visually, like I'm painting with Japanese brushes, but I'm also attached to an EKG machine. And I want to see the correlation between my strokes and my heartbeat. Oh, wow. Minting the specific parts of my heartbeat and then correlating it to the video.
Josh Kriger: All right. So, yeah. Well, Chris is in L.A. Yeah. Maybe we could do something together. Yeah, I'll have to chat with her about what you just shared. That's really cool. So you're here first on Edge of NFP. Thanks for spending some time together. Where do folks go first if they want to dive down the Ali Sabet rabbit hole?
Ali Sabet: You can go to sabet.art, S-A-B-E-T dot A-R-T. And you can find me at Sabet, S-A-B-E-T, on Instagram and Twitter, or Xed, as it's known now. Other than that, I'll try to be everywhere.
Josh Kriger: Yeah, or just come to any IRL event that's sort of bringing together the Web3 community.
Ali Sabet: I ran into you at all of them. Yeah. Come meet me. Find me. I'll draw you something. All right. Great to see you. Thanks a lot, brother. I appreciate it.
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Josh Kriger: Hello, everyone. This is Josh Krieger, co-host of HMNFT, live at VeeCon 2024 in my hometown, Los Angeles, my second hometown. You all know I'm from Boston. And I'm here with none other than Swan Sit. It's great to see you, IRL, again in LA.
Swan Sit: Exciting to be here. We've known each other for years. We've been through the grind together, and I'm super excited about ICons in your town.
Josh Kriger: Yeah, me too. For those listeners who were born yesterday, Swan is a global leader in marketing, and she was previously with Nike, Estee Lauder, and Revlon. She's a creator with millions of followers, as well as known previously as the Queen of Clubhouse. She works with a lot of brands around sort of how to evolve their technology strategies, and we'll talk a little bit more about that today. Absolutely excited. So the last time we sort of actually connected IRL was at, I think, Outer Edge 2023. And it's been a light year ago in terms of space. And you were on a panel then talking about sort of the future of brands and whatnot. And I think your point then was agility. I'm curious, sort of in the realm of advising companies in this space, what's been the trajectory they've taken in the last few years and where are you sort of pushing them towards?
Swan Sit: Absolutely. Well, first, I mean, my best memory from that year was you put me on stage with William Shatner. So thank you for that opportunity. And I think it's a testament to the types of people and brands getting into this space and realizing that Web3 is not a thing you sell. It's a technology that powers everything we do, like the early days of the Internet. So I've been really proud to continue working with the same companies I advise, with the same brands I advise, but people are starting to realize that It's not a thing, right? Like if I ask you your favorite music, you might say rock, jazz, or hip hop. You don't say MP3. The same way we don't sell NFTs, we might sell music or track loyalty and purchases or data about consumers. It's a technology. So the way that the companies have evolved that are using Web3 correctly, I think are really exciting because they solve real world problems, right? So you take, go ahead.
Josh Kriger: Yeah, I was going to say there's now sort of this post-mortem on their first phase of Web3 where some folks are saying PFPs were ultimately our worst enemy because they sort of sent folks in a different direction around speculation and sort of distracted folks from the really potential power of NFTs. You know, I think there's more to it than that, but I do appreciate how these other use cases didn't get enough spotlight back then, and now they're coming to the surface.
Swan Sit: Right. Well, I think PFPs were good and bad, right? Just like most things in history. They were good in that they excited people about learning about something new. And we got tons of people into the space that never would have even come to it, including me, and a bunch of people who've left, which I'm sure will come back. But they were bad because you need the speculation to draw people in. There's innate things about human nature that like upside, that like risk, right? it probably did it a disservice because that's all people knew, was Bored Apes. And we're like, no, no, no, there's this whole blockchain technology. But it's the same thing that happened with internet stocks early. I mean, some of the valuations were insane and then it crashed, the same thing happened to us. In fact, I predicted the crash for PFPs four months before it happened on Randy Zuckerberg's show and everyone's like, oh, you're such a hater. And I'm like, no, it's just market dynamics. It's supply and demand. And so I think we've all gotten smarter collectively since the people that have stayed have pivoted the businesses. to solve problems, right? Like, I advise Absolute. They're a company that does Web3 Wallet CRM. They are now the Web3 Wallet and CRM of record of all of LBMH's brands globally. How important is it for a luxury company to know what its consumers are doing? It's huge, right? Zipline in that space too. They are allowing a platform, giving a platform for brands to truly collaborate with their community, to make products together and reward people in the community. Very cool. What kind of products? Anything from handbags to shoes, they're working with some of the brands that you know and love and they're backed by Google. So that's all I can say, but keep an eye out because think about a platform where community members can come express ideas, brands can co-collaborate and just push products out the door.
Josh Kriger: Yeah, I love that. We just talked about on our Hot Topics show the collaboration with Steve Aoki and Steppin on the new Shoe Line. Totally. That's a great example of using all this different technology stacked together, right?
Swan Sit: Exactly. Instead of just saying, hey, go dance with Steve Aoki, there's a product behind it, there's stickiness, there's a long tail, an actual product and value consumers can hang on to. And then I think the other side of it, there's practical use for consumers and brands, but there's technology evolving too. I advise Cosmic Wire, and they have the first fully interoperable platform. So right now we use a lot of bridges. We freeze a contract on one asset, we bridge it over to the other, but it's actually still in two places as two different things. It's not elegant and it's vulnerable because you can brute force attack the original asset. You know how Swift works for currencies literally in one time and space? It actually is the same thing in two places and two currencies at once. They've managed to do that for different chains and they have an API to plug into any system. And this is out already. It's being launched soon. They're looking for partners. So that's all I can disclose. But the idea is now you have true on and off ramps between chains and between multiple currencies in fiat. So that'll make all the back end messy. Like I still don't know where my Arbitrum is. but all that will go away because it's just hidden in the back end.
Josh Kriger: All right, well, we're on the edge of NFT, we like to talk about things to the edge, so you heard it here first, and we'll have to get CosmoFire, Jared, on the show to learn more about what they're doing. That's really cool.
Swan Sit: Absolutely. I think one last one I think that's really cool is what Atom is doing with an NFFT. It's a fungible, non-fungible token. And so what we always had is a separation, right? You have these, like, fungibles as tokens we trade and we treat as a currency almost or a stock. And then you have NFTs, which are soul bound and have unique identifiers. Imagine something that's both at the same time, right? And they've done really good work with brands, like with Pepsi, they had over 400,000 people sign up for a wallet during the World Cup without knowing it's a wallet. So now think about what this technology does for brands needing to actually create digital products, track behaviors, and have almost like a digital currency without ever calling it that. You know?
Josh Kriger: Yeah, I mean, per full disclosure, I can tell you now that I'm actually working very closely with the Vatom team.
Swan Sit: Oh my god, keep it in the family!
Josh Kriger: Amazing, right? Yeah, actually, this past year I interviewed Eric and we announced and showed a live working demo, him and Greg, at the Vatom house of this technology. So, pretty amazing stuff and there's a separate entity that's sort of building underlying tech and Vatom will be one of the key integration partners using all their expertise on working with brands. They've done more brand collabs, I think, than anyone in the space and they understand the power of something like that. I'm really excited about it because ultimately there's people talking about the challenge with NFTs and their liquidity issues and fractionalization has its challenges as well. But there's also challenges with tokens and how fast they move and how slippery they can be. We've seen that time and time again. Things have not sort of shifted in that way. There's still a correlation with the markets. It's still the little guy getting beat up all the time. So we need ways to gamify both NFTs and regular traditional fungible tokens to sort of support both economies being more, not only more stable, but also more fun and more interactive with their end consumers and stakeholders.
Swan Sit: It's more flexible, too, because at any given time, you'll want to pulse different things. So our technology used to limit us. But I see the big trends either in consumers and brands moving towards things that are usable in a consumer retail space, or the technology becoming more flexible so it doesn't become a limiter. It's actually a platform of lots of different options, and then you can actually create the business on top of it. So it's one on each side. That's where I see companies evolve.
Josh Kriger: Just a follow-up point, there are things that have been a little bit challenging in the U.S. Obviously, the Ripple case was a major settlement this past week. You know, there might be some policy changes on the forefront. We'll see. What I've been really impressed with in my global travels this year is how many Web3 brand use cases actually already exist in the world and we aren't talking about. Have you sort of also come to that reality? Like there's a wing company, ShibWing, so it's just on the show, that's using crypto to support their group of customers around loyalty in Australia. It's the number one lean company in Australia. So I think there's a lot of sort of skittishness here. That's sort of people are coming back to the pool again and trying out the water. But we have a lot of global examples where it's actually working.
Swan Sit: Absolutely. I mean, it's a wing company in Australia. There is a tiny pizza company in Cannes in France, which is where I think the next ECC will be. There are lots of examples of this because I did this keynote at ETH Denver a few years ago and people asked me about mass adoption. I was like, hide the tech. Make it easy to use, which is not the same thing, right? We don't want to see what chain you're on. You don't want to have to deal with, like, multiple logins. So hide the tech, but make it easy to use so it's seamless and it's as natural as buying something online, but it has a purpose, right? Whether it's a free beer with your wings or loyalty points, something, right? If those things don't... aren't sticky, we never cross this chasm into mass adoption. And it's fun to see people coming back, not for the hype, but to build real businesses off of it. Some hype is fun and there's still a lot of meme coins. I haven't touched them because for me they're dangerously close to securities. But I think the use of how it's going to transform businesses, to be honest, sometimes smaller ones, because I was in Portofino and there's a restaurant that takes Bitcoin for payment. I think smaller companies are going to beat the big ones because they don't have as many barriers, they're not as afraid. And when the owner of a small company gets it and just turns on that on-ramp, it's golden.
Josh Kriger: That is the ultimate form of mass education. And there was a line around Shib Wings. Someone was really excited to be the first person to pay in crypto. It's innovation, right? So speaking of innovation, where are you going next with some of the projects that you're advising? Anything you can talk about at this moment?
Swan Sit: Actually, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to talk about it, but we signed the paperwork today. I just joined as an advisor to the district. Now, I know the first half of this, we talked all about utility for brands and retail, we talked about tech, but I still think, and this is in my heart, and I know it's in yours too, there's still the spirit of Web3 degens who want to be in a community together. And so I came across District, and do you remember early Web3 vibes, those late night clubhouse rooms, the discords, you just hang out and everyone would be in it together? Like, I got vibes from that, which is not easy nowadays.
Josh Kriger: People were raising money in these late night sessions. It was pretty crazy.
Swan Sit: I mean, I get those vibes from projects that still have a pretty decent floor, not from new ones. I feel hype from meme coins, but I'm not feeling the community where people hang out before a mint happens.
Josh Kriger: true, authentic community in most cases, right?
Swan Sit: Right. Well, we talked about community lots over the years, right? I mean, the commonality of purpose meets frequency of touch. Believe in the same thing and meet often enough to feel included with the community. But what I think District is doing is really cool, which is why I raised my hand to join. They're building this incubator for business. The base layer is a community that we know and love. But it's an incubator for people to co-invest and co-build, and it's going to be shepherded by this 111 group of people that are the tastemakers and leaders of Web3. And it's organic, right? People like Betty have joined in, etc. The founders have deep roots in Web3, right? It's JR from Oniforce, it's Taylor who minted CryptoPunks. Keely, who was co-founder of Paradigm Sports, managed Conor McGregor. So these are real business people. But you have people like Iggy Azalea raising her hand, not as a meme coin mint, but like, I want to be a part of this community that shapes the future of an ecosystem that builds together. And I just haven't seen people raise their hand before a mint knowing what a mint price is or what it's even going to be saying. I want to be a tastemaker in the future. In fact, I think it's something you should look at too.
Josh Kriger: I'm definitely going to check it out. It sounds really cool.
Swan Sit: So I signed on because I think they're building community the right way. There's a purpose to actually incubate businesses or co-investments or projects out of it. And it's truly being vetted by the community to elect their own tastemakers, right? These 111 are going to be the ones who shape the direction of this. kind of the way DAOs are supposed to work, but I think in a much more transparent, upfront way. That's very cool.
Josh Kriger: Yeah, I've seen some mobilization like this in the Ordinals community, but not more broadly. There hasn't been this sort of renaissance thinking, I guess, at scale. What are your thoughts, by the way, on Ordinals?
Swan Sit: I think it's great. I mean to be fair, like Bitcoin being a finite number that will only decrease is the most salient characteristic of that. And the fact that you can write on them makes it kind of like the NFFT, right? It actually changes the perspective of what you can use it for. This Mint is going to be on ordinals as well. Okay. So I think there's an incredible opportunity to take a resource that's only getting scarcer, that probably has not maybe right now the most utility, but the most ability to appreciate, not speculatively, but just by supply and demand metrics, right? And essentially you have a peg. Yeah, essentially. And so to inscribe on that and to build a community that's based around winning together, not just Because back in the day when we won together, it felt like a craps table, right? You're all friends until you crap out, and then everyone goes their own way. This hasn't even minted. There's not even plans leaked for it. I think it's on its way. I can't confirm. But people are in. They're like, we're here. Let's wait to see what happens. And the lore and the fun, it felt like early Web 3 days. So in a very contrarian way, I went backwards into some of the old feelings, because I think there's room for all of those. So I think there's a place for both. Hardcore tech that solves problems, but community, space for people to be together, to form. And I think we need that more than ever since COVID. I think technology allows us to do that. But measuring the value of community was virtually impossible before, right? It's not about the number of fans or followers. That's a vanity metric. It's only slightly directional. But it's like gravity. Community, you know it. You can feel it. It's hard to measure. PFPs gave us a way to do that. And I still think there's space for it. I just don't think there's space for two million projects like that.
Josh Kriger: Well I gotta give a shout out to Pizza Ninjas. I'm a holder and they're actually collaborating with Bit Lair in Korea on a whole week of takeover. But I've seen sort of what they've done with community building, IRL and virtual, and how the Ordinalis community has come together. You know, Seoul is coming up, but it's also in Hong Kong and Lisbon. The Ordinal's movement is alive and well and there's a real true sense of community there. So I think we have sort of this, the phoenix is rising for Web3 again and it's going to be a fun flight for the next few months and I really appreciate your insights on space as always. It's great to catch up with you. Do people still sort of, where do you recommend people track you down next or where should they start?
Swan Sit: X and Instagram are the same, all one word, Swansit. Same on Discord as well. A mix of different things. I'm flying around, still being a nomad, speaking at conferences. A lot of my time is teaching people about new technology. That was my job when I was head of digital at Nike Revlon. First it was teaching them e-com, then it was teaching them social, and now it's blockchain and AI. So yeah, find me on socials or my website, also swansit.com.
Josh Kriger: All right, thanks, Son. Always a pleasure.
Swan Sit: Thank you.
Outro: The views and opinions expressed on Edge of NFT reflect solely those views and opinions of the show hosts and its guests. Please make sure to do your own research. Our show is not financial advice. You understand that you are using any and all information available on or through this podcast at your own risk. Whenever making financial decisions, we recommend doing your own research and talking to your accountant for financial advice. From time to time we may feature sponsored content on the show for which we receive value and we may share links for which we receive a commission if you make a purchase through one of those links. Refer to our website www.edgeofnft.com for our full disclaimer, terms and conditions, and privacy policy.
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